No, not the movie
Published on March 9, 2005 By stutefish In US Domestic
What's wrong with the Ten Commandments, anyway? Name one Commandment that doesn't have a universal application. Name one Commandment--just one!--that doesn't communicate a valuabe principle that every healthy community should firmly believe in.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me"? How about this: Know what you believe, and be true to it. Christians, study your scriptures, practice what you preach, avoid hypocrisy. Likewise all you other people with core principles to believe in. Hindu? Be true to your Hindu gods. Buddhist? Don't water down your belief in the evils of Desire, but devote yourself sincerely to desiring nothing. Or don't. I'm not really clear on how Buddhism works. But you Buddhists know. Or should, anyway, if you were serious about your beliefs.

Sure, the Judeo-Christian Ten Commandments put this injunction in Judeo-Christian terms, but that's because it's their version. Are you telling me that other belief systems don't have similar injunctions? Are you telling me that belief systems shouldn't have such injunctions?

And this applies to non-religious value systems, too. The Greens know this commandment. They obey it every day, when they steadfastly refuse any compromise or dilution of their highest principles.

Know what you believe, and be true to it. This is advice we could all benefit from hearing more often. And the halls of Justice aren't a bad place to hear it.

"Thou shalt not murder"? Please. Are there any beliefsystems that value wrongful killing? Okay, bad question. Are there any belief systems out there that value wrongful killing, that we actually want to be part of our community's overall system of values? Any healthy communities out there that promote murder as a core principle? Any reason at all why "don't fucking kill people" is a bad thing to have carved in stone in of our Courts of Law?

"Honor thy father and thy mother"? Riiight. Because children who are encouraged not to respect their elders generally contribute valuable things to a healthy community. Only... not so much. Again, how many religions are making valuable contributions to our community life by advocating a rejection of parents by their children?

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife"? Give me a break. Envy, covetousness, greed... these attitudes are sickening to the individual and to the community.. Don't get hung up on what you don't have. Don't resent your neighbors for their good fortune, or the fruits of their hard labor. Insanity aside, almost all crime arises from this unhealthy obsession with what we don't have, compared to those around us.

Know what your highest values are. Be true to those values. Don't kill people. Respect your elders. Don't base your happiness on things you don't have.

These are all good, healthy values for a community to develop and promote. They may not all be laws, but they all inform our laws, and make a good foundation for responsible and fulfilling interactions with our fellow humans. Far from banning them from the public places, we should be celebrating them in all their forms. Rather than tearing down the Judeo-Christian version, we should be enshrining the Hindu version, and the Confucian version, and Islamic version, right there alongside, in every courthouse in America.

If you're offended by the Ten Commandments, then I have to ask: what kind of monster are you?

Comments (Page 1)
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on Mar 09, 2005

"Thou shalt not murder"? Please. Are there any beliefsystems that value wrongful killing? Okay, bad question. Are there any belief systems out there that value wrongful killing, that we actually want to be part of our community's overall system of values? Any healthy communities out there that promote murder as a core principle? Any reason at all why "don't fucking kill people" is a bad thing to have carved in stone in of our Courts of Law?


Actually there is one. Followers of the hindu god Kali, goddess of destruction.
on Mar 09, 2005
It would also work to just translate the Ten Commandments into Latin. The people who have a problem with "In God We Trust" and "under God" never have anything to say about "Annuit Coeptis" because it's Latin and they don't know any Latin so they don't care if it speaks of God.
on Mar 09, 2005
Welcome back, drmiler. I'm glad to see I haven't bored you or scared you away yet.

Anyway, yes. I know about the cult of Kali. And it's not the only murder-valuing belief system out there.

But please tell me "murder your fellow citizens for the glory of Kali" isn't a core value you'd like to see promoted in your neighborhood.
on Mar 09, 2005
Actually, it's thou shalt not kill.

IG
on Mar 09, 2005
The translations vary, IG. The general consensus today seems to be that "kill" in this context properly maps to an original word meaning "murder", as opposed to killing an enemy in battle, or executing a criminal after their trial. Certainly, in the context of the larger body of Old Testament law, it seems pretty clear that the God of the Israelites differentiated between rightful and wrongful killing, and that the Commandment refers to the wrongful kind.

Certainly, in our daily lives, "don't kill anybody" is a pretty sound rule of thumb. We can debate the complex details of war, criminal justice, self-defense, and defending the defenseless, sure. But those exceptions to the rule (should we agree on them) don't take away from the value of the rule, nor undermine its place in our hearts and minds.
on Mar 09, 2005



Welcome back, drmiler. I'm glad to see I haven't bored you or scared you away yet.

Anyway, yes. I know about the cult of Kali. And it's not the only murder-valuing belief system out there.

But please tell me "murder your fellow citizens for the glory of Kali" isn't a core value you'd like to see promoted in your neighborhood.


No it's not a core value that I'd like to see promoted, my neighborhood or otherwise. You asked for examples of belief systems that promoted killing. I mearly gave you the first one that popped into my head. BTW, I doubt you could *ever* bore me.
on Mar 09, 2005
Heh.

Good point. I actually recognized that asking about murder-cults was a stupid question--we can all think of at least one. What would really interest me is an example of a healthy community that included murder amongst its core values.
on Mar 09, 2005
those who call for displaying the 10 commandments on publicly owned property or on the walls of publicly owned facilities are too quick to dismiss the significant problems resulting from ignoring the wisdom of separating church from state.

first of all, there are several versions of the 10 commandments, each of which is believed by its proponents to be more valid than the others. unless you're planning to display all of them, you're asking the state to endorse one over the rest (as well as endorsing judasim/christianity over other faiths).

consider the following different versions of something as simple as exodus 20:2-17 (and this by no means covers all the disparate issues)

Commands.

English (Reformed).

Jewish (Talmud).

Masssoretic.

Greek (Origin).

Roman and Lutheran.

I.

verses 2, 3

verse 2

verses 3-6

verse 3

verses 3-6

II.

verses 4-6

verses 3-6

verse 7

verses 4-6

verse 7

III.

verse 7

verse 7

verses 8-11

verse 7

verses 8-11

IV.

verses 8-11

verses 8-11

verse 12

verses 8-11

verse 12

V.

verse 12

verse 12

verse 13

verse 12

verse 13

VI.

verse 13

verse 13

verse 14

verse 13

verse 14

VII.

verse 14

verse 14

verse 15

verse 14

verse 15

VIII.

verse 15

verse 15

verse 16

verse 15

verse 16

IX.

verse 16

verse 16

verse 17-

verse 16

verse 17-

X.

verse 17

verse 17

verse -17

verse 17

verse -17



The difference between the Roman Catholic and Lutheran is this : that the Roman Catholic makes Commandment IX protect the wife, while the Lutheran makes it protect the house. The Massoretic divisions agree with the Roman Catholic. The English Reformed division agrees with the Jewish and Talmudical division in including verse 2, but differs in including verse 3 in Commandment I instead of in Commandment II

furthermore, doesnt the sorta massive sculpture commissioned and installed outside the alabama state supreme court building by one of its former justices violate the very emphatic prohibition expressed in the king james version of the decalogue: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the Earth below, or that is in the water under the Earth."
on Mar 09, 2005
The people who have a problem with "In God We Trust" and "under God" never have anything to say about "Annuit Coeptis" because it's Latin and they don't know any Latin so they don't care if it speaks of God.


how many years of latin did you study?
on Mar 10, 2005
how many years of latin did you study?


None, but I still know the translation of "Annuit Coeptis." Sure, one might argue all these resources (Encyclopedias, Mason organizations, history, etc.) saying that Annuit Coeptis means "He has favored our undertakings" is a huge conspiracy by the Jews, but if we're going to believe such an outlandish conspiracy because 10 commandment opponents don't feel like learning what the all-seeing eye and Annuit Coeptis means, then what's a valid source since encyclopedias, Masons themselves, and the many other resources that suggest that Annuit Coeptis means "He has favored our undertakings" and that the all-seeing eye represents God aren't valid sources?
on Mar 10, 2005
None, but I still know the translation of "Annuit Coeptis."


antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.
on Mar 10, 2005
those who call for displaying the 10 commandments on publicly owned property or on the walls of publicly owned facilities are too quick to dismiss the significant problems resulting from ignoring the wisdom of separating church from state.

first of all, there are several versions of the 10 commandments, each of which is believed by its proponents to be more valid than the others. unless you're planning to display all of them, you're asking the state to endorse one over the rest (as well as endorsing judasim/christianity over other faiths).

consider the following different versions of something as simple as exodus 20:2-17 (and this by no means covers all the disparate issues)


Just because there is a piece of statuary on state property does NOT automatically mean that the state is pushing a specific religion or anything else.
on Mar 10, 2005
how about the other 2 commandments:

XI: Thou shalt not get an abortion
XII: Thou shalt not let fags marry

and the sixth should be rewritten:

VI: Thou shalt not kill, except for convicts in Texas, niggers, fags, witches, heretics, Jews, Indians, victims of holy wars, abortion doctors, scientists (especially when they are proven right at a later date), and people who pray to a different invisible being
on Mar 10, 2005
antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.


I know what that means too! What's funny is that I have sources for what I claim. Ever since we started this debate, you have not provided one single source that suggests that Annuit Coeptis or the all-seeing eye means otherwise. Why is that? Are you suggesting that what you say is gospel and should be taken without question, even though you haven't provided any reason for anybody to believe what you say?

You have the Internet at your disposal. I'm sure you can find many credible references that suggest that annuit coeptis and the all-seeing eye refer to things other than God. Remember, of course, that they cannot be encyclopedias, history books, sites of Masonry or any government page, because as we know, they are BULLSHIT for suggesting that Annuit Coeptis means "He has favored our undertakings."
on Mar 10, 2005
And just to provide an example of the sources I've seen suggest what I say, here's a few links:
http://www.britannica.com/ebi/article?tocId=200805 (a premium service)
http://www.usdoj.gov/jmd/ls/dojseal.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_seeing_eye
http://www.greatseal.com/mottoes/coeptis.html

And for fun...
http://www.maximonline.com/grit/articles/article_5841.html
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